Godzilla Movie

Debate Week Season 6 Finale! Day 8: Godzilla 2014 vs Queen Legion!

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ModeratorGiganMay-15-2015 7:16 AM

This is it, the end of the road! The Grand finale Mothra 2001 vs Ghidorah 2001....What!! Godzilla 2014, and uh....Legion (Dear lord this is even better then the other battle screw that!) Begin!!

Godzilla 2014 was around during when the earth was ten times more radioactive, he hunted mutos for a living. But when the permian impact happend... Wait let me just say this to some people, to some people it is not canon and to some people it is canon, they say in the awakening comic book that he was 12 metres away from the permian impact, and according to the book he was unscathed.

If this is true then that means he has immensly supreme durabillity! After the earths radiation faded he went down underwater to right near the earths core where he could absorb all the radiation there for an eternity. Godzilla 2014 only awakens when there are threats to Earth or the balance.

He has incredible intelligence, even regarded as semi sentient! Godzilla 2014 was able to take multiple beatings from the mutos and it didnt do that much damage. Godzilla 2014s strength is incredible as he was able to easily push back the female muto and knock her down on top of it.

Godzilla 2014's battle strategys are very strategic he decided to step on the female muto and if that danged male wasnt there he could have killed both of them easily.

Godzilla 2014 mainly uses his jaw for battling and his claws for the most part of grabbing and throwing. Godzilla 2014's stamina is questionable, as he was able to swim from the center of the earth to hawaii in less than 12 hours!

However, he did get tired out during his final battle and had to rest for about 5 minutes, probably due to the facts stated above.

Godzilla 2014's semi sentience strikes again when he realizes that the way to kill the male muto was to hit him in mid air, using his tail Godzilla 2014 did so and ended the foul beast.

Godzilla 2014's atomic breath is questionable, we dont know how powerful it really was but from what we saw it does do alot of damage. If we want to use the electrical sack theory, then Godzilla has a electrical sack in his stomach which uses electrical sparks to generate the plasma and radiation in an ionized blast!

But the Mutos were holding it back because they have an EMP which stops everything electrical around them. So Godzilla 2014s sack was short circuiting and not working that well.

But Godzilla was still able to use it but it caused him tremendous pain in his stomach and throat! Godzilla 2014s smarts was also used when he realized the way to kill the female muto was to blast her in her mouth with his atomic breath right on her regenerative organs to the point when the were dead.

Godzilla's Durabillity is also amazing as he was able to take multiple stabs to his throat stomach and he was still reletively unscathed! Godzilla 2014's height ranges, In the book it was 400 feet! but in the movie he was 355 feet! We can use these 2 heights depending on which ones you believe.

Now onto the demonic leader of Legion, the Queen.

Most refer to Godzilla as, "The King" How about we refer to the Queen Legion as, "The Queen." Wait isn't that Mothra's, well forget it.

The Queen Legion is a 140 meter 600 ton giant...Only 600 tons?

Capable of Mach 1 flight and can do a barrel roll at 50 kilometers per hour!

However, this creature is made of a average Silicon shell and skin, which deducts its Durabillity by a lot.

The eye's of the villanious Queen Legion can find Electro Magnetic waves in the world, the Queen's mouth has the abillity to condense Micro waves and turn them into a blue heat beam, which can kill easily.

The Queen Legion can, with extreme tiring force summon a baby Legion out of its mouth known as a, "Butte Legion" This immense creature has enough power to incinerate a Manufacturing factory with 2 blasts! It also is extremely hot as it singed Gamera's hands an put holes in his plated shell.

The Egg chamber of the Queen is a horrible, horrible place to be. This creature can bring forth to this world nearly 100 baby Legion's, which fight tooth and talon to eradicate whatever the Queen has trouble with.

The Queen's hind legs are incredibley powerful weapons, since they use their arms to excavate and dig underneath the earth. Their hind legs can be used as a form of stealth weapon from beneath, a rear kick was so powerful it knocked Gamera out of the sky and pierced his shell.

In full power, Legion can use her crown to eradicate all energy within a blast before it get's to her. This attack worked on Gamera's fire balls, missles. But when Legion is weakened it only slightly halt's, not entirely.

Legion's Plasma beam is by far her best ranged attack, by condensing plasma energy into her mouth it fire's a extremely deadly beam which blew off chunks of Gamera's shell, where does he get the Shell replacements?

This is it, The Debate Week Season 6 finale! I really hope you all have enjoyed this season, lets shoot for 15-20 replies. And hopefully i will see you in Season 7.

Good grief.

57 Replies


MemberTitanosaurusMay-16-2015 12:58 PM

So, basically everything about what we've seen in these monster franchises and what we gleam from what we've seen in terms of facts is all speculative fan-fiction, if we take Wolfguy's words at face value.

Personal quip aside, for Durp004, plenty of evidence showing that was the case. First of all, in the novel, it's stated that the bomb used against Godzilla in 1954 was Castle Bravo. Now, Captain Hammond's statement of it being kiloton means either he didn't quite fact check right, or that something else is going on. But now we look to the evidence for the argument. Castle Bravo took place on March 1, 1954, at Bikini Atoll. The bomb fielded against Godzilla that we see mentioned in both the film and novel was on March 1, 1954, at Bikini Atoll. Unless two bombs were detonated simultaneously in the exact same area at the same date for completely separate purposes. So, Castle Bravo then. We can agree on that one, I hope.

Next up, examining what Wolfguy claims is "pure speculative fan-fiction". In the novel, it's stated that the M.U.T.O.s have regenerative cells, and that their EMPs disrupt Godzilla's plasma breath. Since no explanation was given in the film for these two things, and since it doesn't contradict anything seen in the movie, it can be used in a factual debate without any issue, since, going by expanded universe logic (following the Halo example), we use the canon of the main media outlet, and then fit what is in expanded material to supplement it.


MemberBaragonMay-16-2015 1:09 PM

"First of all, in the novel, it's stated that the bomb used against Godzilla in 1954 was Castle Bravo. Now, Captain Hammond's statement of it being kiloton means either he didn't quite fact check right, or that something else is going on"

Jesus christ this is the most open denial I've ever seen. The movie took over a minute to explain, that they used nukes before then said it was only a kiloton nuke. But according to you, they're wrong. That's right the quote from the movie is wrong and I should listen to you. Please, please, please drop the megaton nuke. As I've said before this is not the real past this is the cinematic past within a movie, got it can we accept that? What was the operation called again? Oh that's right Lucky Dragon, so was that the real name of the operation in real life? No? Well, enough said. 


You can't mix the two outlets, and take bits and pieces of what you want. Any important info would be generated to the live audience that saw the movie, the reason it wasn't is because it's not cannon. The book can't say things that go against the movie then say things the movie doesn't address and we take what we want of those things as fit them in. If you can explain why the movie took time to explain why I'm right about the nuke being kiloton, which you claim is wrong, but didn't explain the important info that is key to the title character's abilities please explain. I'm sure I'll enjoy reading your logic of how a movie can spend time putting incorrect information in(according to you of course) when they could have filled that scene with "facts" about godzilla and the MUTOs


MemberBaragonMay-16-2015 1:19 PM

Whoa! Wow!  This is one reason why I don't debate anymore. Some people take this f###ing crap to serious and some are just arrogant. It's sickening to see how debating quickly becomes arguments. 

Gg, no offense but, if you were to have done the so many others that I suggested, this stuff wouldn't have happened.

http://hugeben.deviantart.com/  check out my gallery of Godzilla artwork! Follow me on Twitter@thebigbadben90.


MemberTitanosaurusMay-16-2015 1:35 PM

Durp004, I really don't appreciate that tone. If you're gonna debate with me, at least show me the same respect I've given everyone else, please. With that out of the way......

The statement from Captain Hammond directly contradicts itself, because, as we all know, Castle Bravo was launched on the exact same day at the exact same location as the one he told us about. Castle Bravo is even mentioned in the film in some of the newspaper clippings in Joe Brody's housing. However, we can postulate that perhaps the kiloton bomb was infact Castle Bravo, but the kiloton range was its actual range, and the megaton range of the real-life equivalent changed for the purposes of the film. I don't know. It's the only way I can think that makes it all fit together.

Now, onto the whole "not explaining key abilities" thing. The film never explained what purpose an EMP in an organic creature that never set foot in the present day before would serve, nor the plasma breath for a creature like Godzilla. Very specific things that aren't an accident of evolution. Not too many Kaiju flicks actually explain why and how monsters possess certain traits. But at least with LegendaryGoji, we have supplemental expanded material to fill in the gaps.

The canonicity is in question, yes. But, given that, like the original versions of Halo: The Fall of Reach and Halo: Reach, things were adjusted and/or added into a composite version where the main media outlet takes priority but non-contradictory supplemental material is canon unless refuted later on, I think it serves a perfect example for this situation. Without the extra context, we'd have no background info to work with when debating these characters. It's not like I'm saying the novel takes priority over the film.

Okay, so I was for the first thing. I will admit that I screwed it up with Castle Bravo, but everything else is sound. I know that you, OG Gman, etc., REALLY don't subscribe to using anything but the core movies, but I'm only following the example of a well-established formula for a successful franchise built upon picking and choosing what is and isn't. You gotta admit, anything that doesn't directly contradict the film from the novelization and the Awakening prequel comic makes a lot of sense in terms of providing extra context.


MemberBaragonMay-16-2015 1:38 PM

Guys! Let this #### go!  It's only causing stress on your alls shoulders. It's crazy, pathetic, and saddening to see how debates become flame wars and arguments.

http://hugeben.deviantart.com/  check out my gallery of Godzilla artwork! Follow me on Twitter@thebigbadben90.


MemberTitanosaurusMay-16-2015 1:42 PM

Well, I'm not arguing with anyone. Just arguing my point. I never attack anyone else's points. Just provide my constructive thoughts on it, and I provide my rebuttal.


MemberBaragonMay-16-2015 1:46 PM

You are allowed to express your point of view. Everyone is. I have never attacked anyone else either. Some little arguments here and there but, I still tried to get along with them. The thing is, everyone here thinks that they are right and won't except anyone else's opinions or the facts when they are provided. 

http://hugeben.deviantart.com/  check out my gallery of Godzilla artwork! Follow me on Twitter@thebigbadben90.


MemberTitanosaurusMay-16-2015 1:54 PM

Well, I DID turn around my viewpoint on the Castle Bravo fiasco though, Ben. That's something, right?


MemberBaragonMay-16-2015 2:09 PM

Yes! But, you didn't have to. It's your opinion and apart of your own facts. I personally don't look at the comic book as canon, however, it's a fun little book to help make things interesting. If you do look at it as canon, then that's just fine, not a damn thing wrong with it. You sir, are a fine man. 

http://hugeben.deviantart.com/  check out my gallery of Godzilla artwork! Follow me on Twitter@thebigbadben90.


ModeratorGiganMay-16-2015 2:56 PM

Just to say, i am not saying i stated facts. I said Gman was stating facts.

Good grief.


MemberBaragonMay-16-2015 2:59 PM

Ben you're kind of overreacting at most this had a light argument over the debate it definitely at no point was a flame war or even close, and I don't think it's causing anyone stress.


This is a discussion between cannonicity of things, opinions are part of the debate as they create your side. The point isn't to change opinion it's to validate it, if you can't do that then chances are your opinion is wrong(and opinions can be wrong)


ModeratorGiganMay-16-2015 3:04 PM

^ I haven't run out of matches, i just seem to not be choosing fan favorites like i used too.

Good grief.

G. H. (Gman)

AdminGodzillaMay-16-2015 4:54 PM

"The statement from Captain Hammond directly contradicts itself"

Yes, but the novel also contradicts the movie and you're perfectly okay with merging information from those two.

Fact is, when I go into these debates, it's going to come from what's seen on screen. "Going for the gills", "attacking while laying the eggs on purpose", "regenerative MUTO powers" none of this shows up on screen. You'll have to find another way to convince some of us, because we're not going and will continue to not take into account some author's interpretation of someone else's script directed by another guy who had no input in the novel. The book was written to cash in on the new film--To give it yet another piece of merchandise. Its information is flimsy at best. Easily forgotten at worst.

If you can come up with a way G'14 can win without officially licensed fan fiction I'm all ears. Otherwise, I'm nowhere near close to convinced.

"'Nostalgic' does not equal 'good,' and 'standards' does not equal 'elitism.'" "Being offended is inevitable. Living offended is your choice."


MemberTitanosaurusMay-16-2015 5:38 PM

Alright, OG GMan, I'll bite. Though I do suggest not blatantly insulting the only source of additional context we have for the characters and events of the film.

Weaknesses: Godzilla's gills. As we see in the bridge scene, the army and navy fires upon Godzilla with everything they've got, but to no avail. However, as we later see, when the naval fleet begins landing shells on his gills, he starts to feel it, and in turn crashes through the bridge as a reaction. Additionally, both M.U.T.O.s made a point to bite down on his gills, causing him to cry out a bit more than usual when they were beating on him.

Strengths: The M.U.T.O.s may have been able to beat down Godzilla, but only in tandem, without giving him any break between attacks. Even then, he still had the strength to use his plasma breath on the female, continue fighting and ultimately tail-whipping the male, get back up from a building over twice his size falling on top of him, and ending the female with a plasma breath fatality. And then we come to his durability. Besides the gills, there weren't too many areas to exploit for weaknesses. He's so durable, he could survive a point blank multi-kiloton nuclear explosion, without any visible damage, seeing as how he looked exactly as he did 60 years ago. That's not only taking into account the kinetic and thermal energy, but also the nuclear fission. That stuff rips apart atoms, but not Godzilla. Oh yeah, and he could toss the male M.U.T.O., who was likely close to 48,000 tons going by the Typhoon-class submarine he dredged up, with his mouth. And also easily pushed the female back by the throat, who is nearly as large as the Heisei Godzilla, with one hand.

Intelligence: When the ODST-wannabes came upon they nest, they found the female in the midst of laying her eggs, a vulnerable period for all contemporary egg-laying animals. And then Godzilla coincidentally turns around when she does just this, challenging her to a fight. As a famous quote from The Incredibles that became meme-worthy once said, "Coincidence?"

There ya go, folks.

G. H. (Gman)

AdminGodzillaMay-16-2015 9:44 PM

"Though I do suggest not blatantly insulting the only source of additional context we have for the characters and events of the film."

If they're dreamed up add-ons by people paid to make an extra buck on the film I don't see why not. Especially when the world will be expanded in later movies.

As for your argument, I still see a lot of the specifics in that is still speculatory at best. Your watching onscreen visualizations, theorizing about his strengths and weaknesses through that and claiming it's fact. There's still no hard proof about it. The gills being a weakness, maybe. There seems to be some visualization there, but even then Godzilla was crying out in pain from other blows as well. The idea that his breath is "plasma". And yeah. I'd consider the egg laying moment a coincidence. There's just nothing implied or dramatically infered that Godzilla planned a sneak attack while she was laying eggs. Doesn't make much of a difference since she was pretty much done and ready to rumble once Godzilla revealed himself. Seems to me he had his hands too full with the male MUTO to even consider such a notion.

I think Legion still has this one, but honestly, as far as arguments in favor of Godzilla '14, it's actually Durp that's made the best case. He threw down some ideas that were actually more thoroughly conveyed in the film and that weren't plucked from from over-analyzation. So far he's the only one to convince me this fight could be a lot closer.

"'Nostalgic' does not equal 'good,' and 'standards' does not equal 'elitism.'" "Being offended is inevitable. Living offended is your choice."


MemberTitanosaurusMay-17-2015 3:25 AM

You're really killing me here, OG GMan. Did you know that a large majority of monster facts is technically speculation based on how you analyzed what I've presented? Therefore, it can be presumed, based on that assumption, that a large majority of all of our points are nothing but speculation because the movies didn't go out of there way to explain then. We could technically consider many of our points invalid because they weren't explicitly implied. BTW, don't appreciate you guys ignoring my comment retracting some of my prior assumptions.

Se what I'm getting at? BTW, I can tell it's plasma because, despite its flame-like appearance, if you look closer, you can actually see it's closer to a vapour of ga than a real flame. As well, plasma is extremely hot, regularly reaching temperatures hotter than the surface of the sun, thus explaining the blue appearance, as well as why it would do som much damage in such short time to the female. And did I mention that the breath began to fan out after only a dozen meters or so? Plasma deteriorates at a rapid rate over increasing distance without some sort of electromagnetic field to contain it.

And remember that the Legion Queen is only 600 tons, FAR LESS than even the male M.U.T.O., and Godzilla could throw him wih just his mouth. That, and Gamera managed to stop the oncoming charge of her from reaching the choppers, with difficulty of course. And, given Godzilla's MUCH higher mass (way more than both of them combined), and how easily he pushed around the Heisei-Godzilla-sized female M.U.T.O. around, one-handed or not, a physical brawl will easily go in his favour. Then we come to the energy beams. Considering that Godzilla survived a multi-kiloton nuclear bomb's worth of thermal and kinetic energy, as well as the atom-ripping nuclear fission that comes with that, I think it's safe to say that energy beams are much less dangerous, though they'll still hurt. However, if Gamera could tank enough of them, I say Godzilla could too, and even better than him.

Now the swarm of Legion Drones. I agree, they're the biggest game-changer. But unless they're going for the eyes or gills (I mean the slits between the gills), they won't be doing much actual damage to Godzilla's supremely powerful hide. Now, since the Legion Queen has never done a surprise attack from underground or from the air, and it hasn't been implied really that she does so anyways, I think it's safe to assume she's not privy to doing so, which takes away a major advantage. So, in order of descending danger level, we have: energy beams, Legion Drones, Legion Queen in physical combat. At extreme distances, the Legion Queen will simply cut down Godzilla, but he CAN take it. He can take being swarmed by the Legion Drones, though they will distract him, opening him up for attack, which could get him killed, but he CAN take it. And if he DOES get close, well, it's all over for the Legion Queen.

Also, do note that I work on Halo Universe/Star Wars Universe logic. Expanded material is automatically open for usage in debates, but in the case of novelizations of the main outlets, such as Halo: The Flood, or the Pacific Rim novelization, the creators actually choose which aspects are canon if it differs between the novel and the main outlet. Now, I'm not saying that this is the case for the Godzilla novelization, but we don't have anything to disprove it either. And DON'T bring up the case of this being a tie-in for-profit product based on an earlier version of the script. YES, I'm aware of that. Doesn't change the fact that we have yet to see any confirmation from Legendary or Gareth or Max on whether or not anything from it is viably canon. Unless you have some, guys. Then I'll gladly renounce my faith, okay? :)


MemberBaragonMay-17-2015 6:04 AM

as well as why it would do som much damage in such short time to the female.

I would say the female MUTO took this atomic breath for longer than most monsters do in the series so I don't consider that a lot of damage in a short time, at least not by average Godzilla standards.


Then we come to the energy beams. Considering that Godzilla survived a multi-kiloton nuclear bomb's worth of thermal and kinetic energy, as well as the atom-ripping nuclear fission that comes with that, I think it's safe to say that energy beams are much less dangerous


The pod exploded right in Gamera's face and it was a 6 kilometer blast. Whether the pod or the nuke is more powerful up for debate, but I think it's fair to say the pod is at least close, and even after that the Queen's beams shot through Gamera quite easily, especially after the horn got ripped off and she went into some type of frenzy. Honestly that's the point where I doubt G14 would win this even in a 1v1, as those whiplike beams shot through Gamera quite easily and seemed to offer a decent amount of defense in the terms of having to go through them to get to the Queen. The upside however is it seems when this happens she can't use her shield anymore becoming even more a of a class cannon than before with no defense at all trading is for overwhelming offense. If Godzilla would handle those and get close then I believe he could win against the Queen's lack of size or decent armor. If he couldn't however the fight is over. This again comes down to Godzilla's defense vs the Queen's offense. Since he handles the nuke and at least survived it, he has a pretty decent defense, but the muto did a lot of damage with just claws, granted the emp that they activated added what seemed to be an extra shot and provided more damage on top of the physical hits but those hits were no where near what the Queen can do with her beams. The longer the fight lasts the less likely Godzilla is to win, but if he can manage to charge though the beams in a short amount of time and put up with them until he gets to the Queens fragile body he could win. If this becomes a war of attrition with between Godzilla's hide/stamina and the Queen's beams the Queen wins. 


they won't be doing much actual damage to Godzilla's supremely powerful hide.


In a short amount of time they probably wouldn't but the problem is G14 has no way of getting them off. Gamera tried knocking them against buildings, and even collapsed onto them and they didn't detach until they got distracted by the power station. That being the case since Godzilla can't take off and quickly rotate around to shake them off they would stay on for quite a some time all the while slowly doing damage and whittling down his defense. I agree in a 1v1 between Godzilla and the Queen it's somewhat a toss up, but including the swarm tips it extremely in the favor of Legion. As I said big monsters don't do well vs swarms we've seen this is Godzilla vs Megaguirus and Gamera 2, they just have trouble dealing with the smaller horde that can cover them. Unless this Godzilla is going to get on the ground and roll around immediately by the time he figured out that he can't shake them off, and buildings won't help the swarm would have done major damage to him.


Now, since the Legion Queen has never done a surprise attack from underground or from the air


Except when she shot her her legs out of the ground to block Gamera while he was trying to get to the pod. 


but we don't have anything to disprove it either

I think the differences in the movie and the books themselve disprove it. In the book Godzilla failed to use his atomic breath at one point, thus there's logic for it being hindered, in the movie he used it every time, and didn't seem to struggle with doing so at all, no pain or grimacing, the only thing you could look at was the long charge time which was moreso to build up anticipation and excitement for the audience. As for the mutos healing, they never really get injured till they actually die in the movie outside the female taking the atomic breath which seemed to still effect her later. I can live with things being glossed over and maybe some small things from the books will turn out to be cannon, but key factors being confined to small audiences that read the book just doesn't seem logical for cannonicity's sake. Could the breath be plasma? Maybe. Do the mutos have some type of healing? To a lesser extent once again maybe. Is Godzilla's breath being hindered? Judging from the movie, not at all.


MemberTitanosaurusMay-17-2015 6:42 AM

You know, OG GMan, I don't mind that you don't wanna take the novelization and the prequel comic as fact. I really don't. But you gotta understand that from my background when it comes to analyzing characters, events, etc., I don't overlook these sorts of things unless they are confirmed to not count in some capacity.

You could say that it all stems from the release of Halo: Reach. And DEATH BATTLE. When the game released, it spat in the face of everything lore fans have cherished about Halo: The Fall of Reach. However, Bungie didn't give a damn. Then along comes 343 Industries, and tries to fix things, changing the book to fit with the game's newly changed canon, since the games take priority. But the books, comics, etc., are never forgotten. Even if there are discrepancies, retcons, and contradictions, they're never deemed non-canon. As well, due to the researchers' method from DEATH BATTLE, I always try to count a bunch of different sources. One thing that really stands out for me is the "multiple showings of feats in different circumstances". If there are inconsistent showcases of strength, durability, etc., they would always choose the greatest feat as the maximum threshold, which I applied here.

It's how I approached the novelization and prequel comic. Sure, the film would probably be better off without them, but, being officially endorsed parts of this new universe, unless otherwise stated to not count by official sources, I won't discount them. Yes, the film takes priority canon-wise, and thus, I have to adjust how things work in the supplementary material, but it gives me a wider base of knowledge to work from than having to imply a lot of things from the film, which is the biggest point I've been making. Context. I use the supplementary material for context, and if it doesn't directly contradict content from the main media outlet, and if it isn't stated as non-canon by the creators, I'm gonna use it.

Understand? It doesn't matter how canonical it does or doesn't seem. I work with an absolute set of rules that always follows the main canon first and foremost, then liberally applies that seen in expanded material whilst trying to not contradict the main source. If something does contradict it, the film takes priority, and then adjust what I can use accordingly. So, the examples of the plasma breath, EMPs, regenerative cells, etc.? All fair game unless otherwise disproven by the official higher-ups dictating it specifically.

G. H. (Gman)

AdminGodzillaMay-17-2015 4:51 PM

"Did you know that a large majority of monster facts is technically speculation based on how you analyzed what I've presented?"

Wrong. Most are actually spoken of or confirmed in that actual movie or, even more so, through crew member interviews. Then there's countless sourcebooks Toho's released in Japan with pretty much the same non-contradicting info over and over. (Unless it comes to different incarnations of course.)

There's a strong difference between, "I can tell it's plasma because, despite its flame-like appearance, if you look closer, you can actually see it's closer to a vapour of ga than a real flame,"  than Dr. Shiragami talking about the regenerative properties in G-Cells or Shinoda discovering the power of Godzilla's regenerative cells. Or G-Force confirming the discharge time of what is specifically refered to as radioactive breath. Or Nakamura questioning if Mothra's weapon is a "poisonous powder" and the Shobijin confirming it as her final weapon. And the things that aren't specifically stated, like the nuclear pulse, is clearly a powerful shockwave. What kind of energy is it? Likely nuclear, but that's just speculation. We know it's a shockwave of energy that can rip through monsters and that's that.

But trying to say that we know what any incarnation's breath weapon is actually made of just by "looking at it real close" is not conclusive. By that logic the original film's breath must be a gas.

As for the books? Use'em. I and others just won't consider it.

"'Nostalgic' does not equal 'good,' and 'standards' does not equal 'elitism.'" "Being offended is inevitable. Living offended is your choice."


MemberTitanosaurusMay-17-2015 5:21 PM

Well, fine, but you can't discredit me for using said sources, because, like I said earlier, the only ones who can are the creators themselves. Yes, it gets on your nerves. Yes, the validity of the claims made in these sources is questionable at best. Yes, their quality is divisive for many.

But unless you present an absolute source confirming your stance that it is indeed non-canon to the given debate, I am technically allowed to use it, and you guys can't not accept it as possible fact just because you don't think it's canon. I don't want to spark any flame wars or arguments against you guys. I just want to make it clear that I'm only working with what's presented, and nothing more.

Accept or don't accept it all you want, but because of this technicality, I refuse to bend to the guidelines you guys have set on this issue, since they aren't backed up by official statements, and thus non-applicable in technical terms unless otherwise confirmed.


MemberBaragonMay-17-2015 5:47 PM

"Ben, you're kinda overreacting at this."

Well, maybe I am. However, it's just me looking out for those people. Maybe I'm a little over protective of people, even if they don't want me looking out for them. I remember when I was a moderate and checked in on you when member alx was attacking you. Was I not supposed to? No, I'm not a moderator anymore, but I wasn't dropped because I was supposedly doing a bad job, I asked to have it removed. I regret it anymore. I did what I had to in order to pursue my dreams of one day becoming a comic book artist. Not going to well either. 

As you can tell, it's just me. It's who I am as a person in life. I look after my friends and loved ones. I don't take sides with any one here, but agree with them. We all don't agree on things, if we did then world peace would be alive today. 

Didn't mean to get off topic but, I agree with you Durp004, and Gman2887. Legion as of now is the winner of this debate. Unless more confirmation comes from legendary and Toho on weather or not Godzilla 2014 is stronger than what we've seen. 

Everyone here has brought up great perspectives and facts. Godzilla does out weigh legion by a crap load of weight, but legion is obviously the more powerful of the 2. 

http://hugeben.deviantart.com/  check out my gallery of Godzilla artwork! Follow me on Twitter@thebigbadben90.

G. H. (Gman)

AdminGodzillaMay-17-2015 11:45 PM

"since they aren't backed up by official statements, and thus non-applicable in technical terms unless otherwise confirmed."

Yes, but it's not confirmed by the creators either. Works both ways.

Don't misunderstand, you can use it all you want, but I can discredit it all I want as well based on the same criteria. All I wanted to know is if you actually could present an argument based on the main source material alone all the offically licensed fan fiction and over-speculation.

So by all means. Continue.

In the meantime I see a decently close battle with Legion having a slight edge.


"'Nostalgic' does not equal 'good,' and 'standards' does not equal 'elitism.'" "Being offended is inevitable. Living offended is your choice."


MemberTitanosaurusMay-18-2015 3:18 AM

I'm sorry, but I simply can't comply to that. Not only is it a waste of valuable context that could be used for future references, but it happens to not work both ways. As I've highlighted above, you can call the canonicity of the expanded material into question, but cannot discredit it or its usage as an official source until otherwise said so by an official source. Wanna know why? Technicality. product.

As an officially endorsed product, it is thus an officially recognized part of Legendary's Godzilla universe. However, since this isn't like toys or other merchandise, it falls into a different category of merchandise. I then bring you to the attention of Pacific Rim, and its novelization, another Legendary product. Like this situation, the novel is based on the film. Although most of the events in each coincide relatively well, there are discrepancies. For the most part, film canon takes priority, such as Mutavore NOT trashing two Jaegers before breaching the Wall of Life around Sydney. However, at other points, novel canon is taken as official instead, such as Trespasser being killed by three kiloton nuclear warheads, and not tank and missile fire. But the best examples are those that simply provide context, such as the nuke Striker Eureka was carrying being a 1.2 megaton bomb. And of course we have my previous examples in other comments.

What I'm getting at is that if I'm gonna be using this official info, you can't be saying it isn't usable until the fat lady sings. I mean it. We can only take it as official until proven otherwise, in an adaption of the old legal saying. I hate that it has come to this, but you guys haven't given me any quarter, and I in turn won't give any myself. I can't stop you guys from not seeing it as usable, but I can make sure you get the message that I won't stay quiet. I will continue to make these long-winded comments about why I should and can use it. If you wanna do something to stop me, then all you have to do is not try to discredit me on the usage of expanded material unless official sources back up this claim. Remember, guys. Canon until proven otherwise.


MemberMothra LarvaeMay-18-2015 3:40 AM

Umm... Hi.

my opinion- I think from the evidence and sources I have read I think Godzilla 14 would win. Not gonna give you any reasoning why I think this. I just think this. So... Yeah. Just my opinion. 


MemberBaragonMay-18-2015 5:00 AM

This basically comes down to 1 side saying that the movie didn't say it and the other saying but the movie didn't deny it either. Only problem is that movies almost never go out of their way to say something is wrong from another media, they usually just ignore it or do something that would disprove it. The fact is Legendary doesn't have to say it's all cannon because the movie, by leaving all of it out, implied it through that method. There's no reason that that info would be left out if it was truly cannon, if Serizawa was just there to give exposition on Godzilla anyway, it's not like they couldn't have given him some actual research based facts to add on rather than just speculative "He's here to balance things" It would actually give him more credibility since he's been studying and observing these monsters for years. Rather the movie chose to leave these things out even going against the book with things like the atomic ray and having him use it whenever necessary with no ill side effects, the MUTOs never appearing to have any healing, and it's never obsserved from any of the characters who are constantly attacking and dealing with the monsters. Literally a call could come it after an attack that could say, "it doesn't even seem hurt anymore!" and you might have some evidence, but there never was the slightest inkling of connection to any of those things. The fact that the book and the movie cover the same events means they're different interpretations of both. You acknowledge that the movie supersedes the book so if Godzilla never fails to use his atomic breath in the movie, unlike the book, doesn't that mean it's not effected? I mean I personally saw two different times it was used and neither seemed like it was being hindered. I even watched any signs of pain while charging it, but there was none. So by this logic it's fair to say in the movie Godzilla can use his atomic breath fine, thus the things talked about in the book get overwritten correct?


MemberTitanosaurusMay-18-2015 5:27 AM

I've admitted my mistakes on the subject matter. However, interpretations can only go so far when it comes to non-explicit visual media, since we all have different interpretations that, unless stated otherwise by official sources, are only observation, and thus no one interpretation is right over others. I only use supplementary material for context not provided.

With things like the EMPs and plasma breath, it's hard to judge. Sure, it looks like he's using it just fine, but we don't know if this is the case in actuality. He used it near the end as a last measure against the female, that much we know for certain. However, we cannot say for certain if this is the full extent of that ability's limits since there hasn't been any explanation so far from the film and its creators, and thus can't accurately judge whether or not this is the case. Therefore, we can't rely on our observations alone, Durp004. Where you see a fully-functioning plasma breath, I can just as easily see one that isn't. That's why I use supplementary material for extra context. Yes, the movie supersedes the other stuff first and foremost. But in this case, that's just an observation, like many others for us. Most of our observations from the movie  are our own interpretations, so we can't parade them as fact, no matter how little or how much backing from others.

With that in mind....... according to the novel, the EMPs' purpose is to weaken Godzilla's plasma breath. Since we can't know for certain yet that this was or wasn't the case in the film from observation alone, we'll have to rely on the supplementary context for the time being. Plus, it makes sense, logically speaking. EMPs don't evolve for no reason, and they most certainly weren't evolved specifically to counteract modern-day electronics.

See what I'm getting at? I realize now that my previous observations are just that for the film. Observations, not fact. But the same applies to the rest of you, thus we're all in the same boat, here. Observations made, mostly without official context. However, I have extra official context to call upon from expanded material, and thus can support my observations unless proven otherwise at a later point. It's not a bad thing to call upon expanded material when you can only speculate on the main source.


MemberBaragonMay-19-2015 4:47 PM

True it is all observations, however for an obvervation to be taken seriously it has to have some logic or reasoning behind it. So with that in mind, what, based off what happened in the movie, not the book, leads you to believe that the atomic breath isn't at full power. What did you observe in the movie alone that made you think it might not be going full force.


By your logic of until directors confirm/deny things makes it so basically every kaiju ever has this unmeasurable power ceiling, since almost never do directors come out and say what was seen was the absolute max the monster could do. Instead they leave it up to visuals to give a fair representation of what monsters can do. Oh this monster seems like it's struggling? Maybe something's wrong. Oh this monster is doesn't appear to be outright failing to do something, or showing pain seems things are fine with it.


You act like including other materials makes these fights more fact based, but it just convolutes them with more speculation. Let's assume the books are cannon, ok how strong is Godzilla's breath really then are we looking at spiral ray levels, or just slightly above what we saw so far. There's no context to how much they're being hindered or how strong it really is we just know it has more behind it. So rather than go off what we've seen we have to throw it the "but maybe is 10x more powerful", or how about "I think that about 90% of what it could do maybe it has a little more" the fact is most of those things don't clear anything up it just adds to the what ifs. I'd rather go based of the parameters set and seen rather than even more speculation and what ifs than are already apart of this. You often bring up the books for G14 what about other sources and books for other monster movies? There used to always be mangas and graphic novels released for these movies in japan but since they aren't in the eyes of the western audience that occupies this site those ideas are never brought up. Toho has officially backed books that say ludicrous things that if they were brought up would be laughed at in debates, some Gman2887 has pointed out before like things that make showa Godzilla a god among monsters, but because it was an American company this time, we have to discuss maybes whenever G14 is brought up.


You either have the things established in the movie, or you throw out so many what ifs from your other material and we all end up scratching our heads trying to grasp what G14 can really do because all the books say is that he's capable of more, they don't say what, leading basically any fight to end with, "but maybe he can do x"

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