Singular Point Spoiler Discussion

I love it. I love the accent on the bottom chords that I never really much attention to in other renditions. The choir chant is a nice touch as well, works well with the apocalyptic nature of Goji

A poster was released to commemorate the 13th episode being broadcast on television this week in Japan. (The Netflix episodes release a week early and then repeat on broadcast later.)

The fanfare for it has been quite real overseas:

Unpopular Opinion:

I didn't really like it that much... The animation is amazing and there's some really cool moments. But the story was way too convoluted and confusing, most of the show is focused on a lot of overly complicated technobabble and it was extremely hard to follow (it felt like there was too much going on at once). The series kept flip flopping on it's plot points and it seemed like the writers couldn't decide on certain details, the fact that they kept changing the origins of the monsters and the origin point of the song became extremely annoying, it's like they were just throwing out ideas to see what stuck. Other ideas constantly contradicted themselves, at one point they state that monsters like Gabara-I mean Salunga could control the red mist and then in another scene they state that the monsters were created and controlled by the red mist (Which is it?). Most of the characters were okay, although I felt like the AIs were more annoying than cute, especially the whole Jet Jaguar talking like a baby bit. Godzilla himself kind of felt like an afterthought and it almost felt like they kept forgetting he was there, he seemed more like a special guest star as opposed to being one of the main focal points. I didn't really like that the "new" monsters and Godzilla's early forms just recycled design elements from older monsters. I didn't completely dislike it, I did enjoy it way more than the Polygon trilogy. Overall I had really high hopes and I just felt a bit letdown.

My current rating is 2.5/5 (Mixed Bag)

 SasquaDash

THis is where I disagree with you. The main thing that really stands out about this show to me is how original it is. Rather that the same pattern that much of the godzilla media follows of Monster vs Monster, or Godzilla comes on land, stop it. 

"Other ideas constantly contradicted themselves, at one point they state that monsters like Gabara-I mean Salunga could control the red mist and then in another scene they state that the monsters were created and controlled by the red mist" I honestly dont see your problem with this. Im pretty sure, that the second statement was never said. 

"Godzilla himself kind of felt like an afterthought and it almost felt like they kept forgetting he was there, he seemed more like a special guest star as opposed to being one of the main focal points."

This isnt a problem. Godzilla wasnt even the main focus of the Original movie.

"I didn't really like that the "new" monsters and Godzilla's early forms just recycled design elements from older monsters." I thought they were fantastic! Salunga was an amazing deisign and the more I look at it I see Gabara and Baragon less and less. JUst because it has a horn and the sam skin color doesnt mean theyre the same kaiju. It came off more mmonkey like.

The show kept me entertained the entire time and everything seemed very intentional. And I say again, it isnt bogged down by the usual format of ultraman and monsterverse, and much other godzilla movies. 

Here, here. Second time watching the show and I'm truly sucked in to the world, the procedure and the ideas. I'll likely watch it a third time, once again in Japanese again just to check out Netflix's subtitles. Though I'm surprised at how well the English dub sounds. Johnny Yong Bosch (the Black Ranger from Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers) is a perfect English speaking Yun.

Also, Dman on youtube did a tremendous cover of Sawada's, Alapu Upala, (another example of the mirror concept Mei brought up with "6=9"). Looks like we'll be getting a few different variations of this fantastic piece on the soundtrack, but until then...

Alapu Upala - Godzilla Singular Point [Piano Cover]

HinikunaGoji

There were ideas that I liked and the animation was fantastic, but I feel like the series got bogged down too much by the over bearing technobabble. A little bit is fine, but when 90% of the dialogue is made up of it, it becomes extremely jumbled and hard to follow. Heck, there were times where I was wondering if the characters even knew what they were talking about. It felt like there was too much going on at once and the plot became too convoluted and confusing, it got to the point where I had a hard time trying to comprehend what was happening. The fact that they kept flip flopping between the origins of the monsters (ranging from them being prehistoric, them being from space, them being deep sea creatures, them being from another dimensions, to them evolving from the red dust) really annoyed me, seriously pick an origin and stick with it. It really made me appreciate the simplicity of the the other Godzilla stories. I also find in ironic that the series is made out of technobabble and exposition dumps, yet there's things that they flat out don't explain why did the blood of the Sarunga/Megalon/Kumonga creature come to life and become Hedorah-like creatures?, Why could Godzilla Terrestris's blood become tentacles that protected it from harm? What was the Shadow Rodan? How did Salunga get into that facility? None of this was explained and it just added to the confusion.

The new monster designs just felt uninspired to me, there were aspects of them I liked, but for the most part they felt really unoriginal. Looking at Salunga, Godzilla Amphibia, and Godzilla Aquatilis I couldn't help but think of how much I would rather be watching Gabara, Varan, and Titanosaurus and how it would have been cooler to see them return instead. Godzilla Ultima looked amazing though.

I mentioned Godzilla feeling like an afterthought. He doesn't fully appear until the end of episode 6 and then doesn't actually become Godzilla until the end of episode 10. Even when he's finally in the show they barely show him, there are long periods of time where they cut away from Godzilla and they barely mention him, there are times where it almost seems like they forget about him. I like a good build up (I love Godzilla 2014 for that reason), but when you spend 2/3 of the series waiting to see Godzilla in action, only for them to barely show or mention him, it's pretty annoying.

I didn't hate it, like I said there were things that I enjoyed (I sure as hell liked it a lot better than the Polygon Trilogy), but there was a lot that dragged it down for me. With all of the hype, I had big expectations for it, but in the end I just felt let down. I may watch it again in the future and my opinions may change, but as far as my initial reaction, I was just really disappointed. 

I find it interesting that the most praise that I've seen being given to it (besides the animation) is that "different" and that it's not the MonsterVerse (or that it's not "American"). To me the reactions that I've seen feel more like a "Japanese Godzilla vs American Godzilla" situation with fans arguing over which ones "better", which I find kind of ridiculous.

"To me the reactions that I've seen feel more like a "Japanese Godzilla vs American Godzilla" situation with fans arguing over which ones "better", which I find kind of ridiculous."

Indeed, especially since I haven't seen much of that at all. In fact many of the people praising it are also fans of the Monsterverse merely enjoying the series for what it is rather than comparing it to anything. Rightfully so as the series is excellent without comparison. It is a great deal better than the Monsterverse, but I don't think that's really a conversation worth having when there's so much meat in the series itself worth mining without the need for comparison.

G. H. (Gman)

Yet, you've been comparing Singular Point to the MonsterVerse, mostly as a way of discrediting the MonsterVerse.  

"but after the Monsterverse, I'm happy to have a Godzilla story that swings the pendulum very, very far in the opposite direction."

"The show was ranked #3 on Japan's Netflix over the last few weeks. It takes more than a hardcore fanbase to accomplish that.

The hardcore fanbase showed up and largely love King of the Monsters in theaters, but the general audience didn't seem to pick up on it."

"It is a great deal better than the Monsterverse"

Hell, the Wingard quote that you've been using is another way you've been trying to disregard the MonsterVerse and throw it under the bus...

SasquaDash

Of course singular Point and Monsterverse are gonna be compared. WHich is better is up to the individual, but if you look at the general reception SP has better recieved by the general public is entirely true.

"The show was ranked #3 on Japan's Netflix over the last few weeks. It takes more than a hardcore fanbase to accomplish that.

The hardcore fanbase showed up and largely love King of the Monsters in theaters, but the general audience didn't seem to pick up on it."

This isn't bashing its just entirely true. And plus using a comment not related to monsterverse (the one about #3) and presenting it as one doesnt help support your case.

HinikunaGoji

"And plus using a comment not related to monsterverse (the one about #3) and presenting it as one doesnt help support your case."

The comment did relate to the MonsterVerse though, The full comment was this:

"The show was ranked #3 on Japan's Netflix over the last few weeks. It takes more than a hardcore fanbase to accomplish that.

The hardcore fanbase showed up and largely love King of the Monsters in theaters, but the general audience didn't seem to pick up on it."

Essentialy he's saying "look at how much better that Singular Point did, King of the Monsters didn't do that well so Singular point is superior". He's directly using Singular Points successfulness to discredit the MonsterVerse.  

Personally I don't care if he likes Singular Point more (that's his opinion), but the fact that he seems to use any opportunity to throw the MonsterVerse under the bus and to mock the filmmakers involved with that series has gotten really annoying and tiresome.

SasquaDash

Thats not entirely true. If you went into context and saw it was a response to, “

I think what we see here is that the show is a hit with hardcore G-fans. That's to be expected. But I doubt it did much to extend Toho's reach to anyone else. Now, many G-Fans are purists and want to keep their fandom to themselves, and think that's fine. So maybe that's okay. ”

The KotM reference was a secondary thought. So I should have specified, using that quote had nothing to do with monsterverse.

Kotm was very exclusive and didnt really open up to a larger audience. As fun as it is and I enjoy it, im not gonna try and pretend its a movie that was made as well as it could have been. It was a comparison that showed an interesting point.

Also he mainly just discredits KOTM and GvK.. 

Havent heard much criticism about KSI and G14

My point is that he constantly bashes KOTM and GVK to the point where it becomes ridiculous, He seems to find any excuse to trash those movies and mock the crew involved. After a while it not only gets annoying to constantly see him bashing the movies, but it's kind of demeaning to the people who worked on the films and to the people who like them. It's as if he thinks that his opinion is the only one that matters and that anyone who disagrees with him is "wrong".

Case in point, the fact that both you and Gman pretty much wrote off my criticism of Singular Point because it didn't match your opinion. Gman's reply to my criticism of SP was to basically ignore my points and to counter with "the series is excellent, it's better than the MonsterVerse" like my opinion was somehow wrong and invalid. The point of this forum was to discuss our thoughts on the show, yet it seems that any opposing opinion is being pretty much ignored and thrown aside like it's nothing, which feels a little insulting. 

I get that he doesn't like KOTM and GvK, but his relentless attempts to discredit them is becoming annoying. If I was constantly trying to find any excuse throw the Polygon Trilogy and the people who worked on it under the bus, I'm pretty sure that it would eventually get annoying to everybody and people would want me to stop.

SasquaDash

I would agree with much of your criticisms if Singualr Point was a full story, but its very clear that there will be a season two, hence the after credits scene.I get where you come from on the designs , but i have literally no response to that its based on preference. All i really know is I liked it and can someshat see what dissapointed you.

”It's as if he thinks that his opinion is the only one that matters and that anyone who disagrees with him is "wrong".”

Its the internet, not real interaction the automatic emotion you will read most often is hostile. That dowsnt mean it is. Gman is free to share his opinion and make fun of whatever he wants. I chose to not get bugged by it a while ago.

also Chibi Godzilla does not get to be a godzilla.

SasquaDash,
We've been through this multiple times. As tiring as you may find my distaste for the Monsterverse, I find your interpretation of my words equally exhausting. No. I don't like the Monsterverse, particularly the latter two, and I find some of the people behind them missing the point. Criticism can sometimes seem insulting, but it's also in how you take it.

That said, even the quotes you mention are about as harmless as it gets. I am very happy we're getting something completely different from the Monsterverse. Why would I not, since I clearly don't care for the former? And, "look at how much better that Singular Point did, King of the Monsters didn't do that well so Singular point is superior," is your interpretation of the comment and yours alone. The example with King of the Monsters was to give an example of how a niche fan base alone can not hit successful numbers unless it's reaching wider audiences. Given that this example was in the same franchise, and relevant as of recent, it was the best comparison. Obviously, more than the fan base showed up for GvK whether one likes it or not.

I said this the last time you derailed an entire topic engaging me over this and I'm going to say it again, if you feel the need to discuss my criticisms of the Monsterverse or make it personal, my PMs are open. Feel free to engage. Otherwise, please stop filling up threads with the same, tired complaint over and over. It has ruined topics before, let's not do it here.

Ok so I just finished the show earlier, and even though I highly enjoyed it and thought the show was great, I was very confused for most of the whole thing. Like SasquaDash said, theres so much technobable and super advance science talk through 90% of the show that makes no sense. I kinda get some of the basics of some plot points, there's the archetypes which have 13 states of being or whatever, and those archetypes are used to make a super computer that then uses the archetypes to make a something diagonalizer that is used to get rid of the red dust temporarily and they were trying to make a perfected diagonalizer that was stop the red dust for good so they can avoid the catastrophe. But that's about I understood, feel free to correct me if  got that wrong, like I said I was super confused but also enthralled cause it was so cool at the same time. So can anyone one help me understand that part of the show? Or let me know if there's another forum or a video on YouTube that explains that? Or are we even supposed to understand it? But besides the technobable part I thought everything else was great. The characters were awesome, the voice actors were great, (at least for the dub I'll have to rewatch in sub) I love Jonny Yong Bosch. I loved all the monster designs, I thought they were so creative and amazing, especially Anguirus he was beautiful. The music was really good, the animation was great. The final fight was really cool even if it didn't last long, seeing Jet get as big as Godzilla made me happy. So overall I'd give it an 8/10, the only thing stopping it from being a 10 was the technobable that had me confused the whole show. 

Monkey Feet,
I think the engagement of the idea, despite not always understanding, is what propels the series forward. You sorta have the general idea of how it all connects, but there are a few things you're off about. Luckily, people like Matt Frank and Monstrosities on Youtube will be doing videos and podcasts with those in the profession of theoretical physics and you can follow them for some excellent discussion coming up.

For me, the not understanding invites rewatch and research to explore the show, it's ideas and themes. There's a lot of meat to chew on with this show and I love the fact it beckons multiple watches to "get".

The attention to detail in this series is truly amazing. It was pointed out to me by a Japanese fan that the theme of information from the past informing the future, and vice versa, was making waves much earlier in the series, particularly with this moment.

The young archer uses whistling arrows to distract Rodan. The old mural shows arrows being used against Rodan as well--Samurai would often use whistling arrows as signal for a challenge.

I never noticed that, it is a nice detail,

also the dub voices are so annoying. I dislike them heavily

HinikunaGoji,
They're not as earnest as the Japanese cast, that's for certain. But the dub is fine and the cast matches most of the Japanese counterparts pretty well. Johnny Yong Bosch wrote, directed and starred in (as Yun) the English dub. He got his start as the second Mighty Morphin' Black Ranger on Power Rangers back in 1994. Since then he's done a great deal of voice acting and directorial work behind the camera. I think he did a pretty solid job.

Going through my second watch of Singular Point, I'm struck by the parallels to Ishiro Honda's viewpoint of science. While he had a great deal of faith in science, he was also leery of its use.

As Kyoei on Twitter points out,
Ashihara used multiple singular points as a calculator. Combining them increased their temporal power and the greater that power the further into the future he could "see". However, this calculator reached the same result the further into that future Ashihara could see: The Catastrophe.

The irony is using multiple singular points, each with a competing result, is what caused the catastrophe. The battle between each point's result was literally breaking down time. The calculator is both the salvation and the cause.

Likewise, in Godzilla '54, Serizawa creates a device that could be used to destroy Godzilla, but also be used for a wider range of warfare that could eventually devastate the world. In both cases science is the source of great power and destruction. An old theme of the series that has come full circle.

I don't think Ishiro Honda would've particularly liked any Godzilla project since his death. He was already fairly critical of the Heisei series. But Singular Point might've come the closest based on its hard-fi science and adherence to themes close to his heart from the beginning.