Godzilla '14 vs Godzilla '16

GUATEGOJIRA - You are extremely dedicated to your viewpoint! I find that to be an exceptionally valuable quality! I can certainly understand that which you are extolling; CGI, in this day and age, is definately the most accepted modus operandi of effects-heavy films. I am certainly not in any way opposed to computer generated imagery as a means to bring interesting visuals to life - not by a long shot! However, I feel (and this is simply my viewpoint) that practical effects like suitmation bring something, hmm, visceral to a film. There is a certain quality that actual, physical effects have - a weight - that CGI (once again, in my opinion) is as of yet incapable of imitating. There is life to actual material. Of course, I will in no way contest thatPeter Jackson's King Kong was not moving! I wept at that film's ending - and spilled a Sprite on my favorite skirt (it was an awful night)! :)

The thing is, from my point of view, that the suitmation most look "real" and lets be sincere, some Godzilla suits don't make that. They most focus in him like a "real" animal, with the back scales attached to the body skeleton and not just randomly paste to the back. That, and better efects in the face, will be excelent to add realism to a new suit.

Check this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAzQr3Ml0UI#t=260

Those raptors were amazing! If they make a suit like this, focused in perfection and real nature, then suitmation will be great again. Stan Winston is the best evidence of that. Let's hope that, if the new Godzilla movie use suitmation, that Godzilla and the new monster (s?) will be like this old-school-perfect raptors. :o)

GUATEGOJIRA - That was an incredible suit! I very much enjoyed the way in which the animatronics and manually-controlled elements came togther to produce a very life-like quality in the raptor! I would definately be pleased to see similar effects applied to Godzilla! With that being said (and this might sound silly), I do not necessarily need Godzilla to look hyper-realistic; I just need him to look like Godzilla. I am uncertain of how to explain what I feel with regards to Godzilla's appearance. Perhaps it is a love for the Tokusatsu art form - who knows? Regardless, I very much enjoyed the video you shared! It was quite neat! :)

Guategojira,
Like many western fans, you're really missing the mark about the effects in the Godzilla series. Realism was largely not the goal. Style was. Here's a favorite quote of mine from August Ragone's book, Eiji Tsuburaya: Master of Monsters:

"Realism is not the point. It's about style. It's about mood." - Shiro Sano

You need to understand that the new Godzilla '16 is a Japanese movie and the Japanese have an understanding and respect for the art of tokusatsu. It is part of their culture and part of their cinema history. The "most people" you speak of, must not be Japanese, because they know how to take it seriously or at least take it appropriately for what it aims to be.

Will western audiences not understand this? No, but that's because we western audiences have been unfortunately conditioned to believe CGI and realism is the "correct" way to go about visual effects. Think for a moment: Perhaps in other countries "realism" is considered poor artform and techniques that resemble toku are admired more. It might be hard for some to wrap their heads around, but westerners really need to stop thinking that "realism" = universally better. That is far from the case.

Lets bring it back to Hollywood and put it another way. Are the effects in 300 realistic? It's CG heavy, but does it look like something that actually exists in reality? How about Kill Bill Vol. 1 and 2. Those films feature zero CGI and are purposefully using over-the-top practical effects. What about Dick Tracey from back in the day? Does that movie look realistic? No. Those movies were going for a specific look that wasn't about realism. Godzilla isn't either. Godzilla is the grandfather of a Japanese cinema artform that was the opposite of realism and to completely replace it with CG for all time is to abandon part of what makes Godzilla. It pulls him out of the genre.

To paraphrase myself again, in Japan Godzilla is the "king" of an entire sub-genre of special effects cinema going from Godzilla '54 to Ultraman in 1966 to Gamera 3: The Revenge of Irys in 1999 and Attack on Titan in 2015. The 2014 Godzilla is merely a pauper in the Hollywood machine playing in a sandbox ruled by Terminator 2 and Jurassic Park. He's an old cog of things already done before. In America Godzilla is like Gamera or Ultraman to the proverbial Jurassic Park.

Again. It's about a look, a feel and a style. Not realism. Things can still be serious and dark without looking realistic. Afterall, look at Sin City.

GMAN2887 - I will definately have to give the book you have mentioned a read! If I may ask, is it commonly available, or is it a hard-to-come-by publication? :)

Something Real,
It was recently re-released in paperback. But books in this genre typically don't stay easy to find for long. I'd gun for it while it's out:

Eiji Tsuburaya: Master of Monsters

GMAN2887 - Oh, thank you so very much! I will definately take the opportunity to get a copy! Thank you for the link! :)

Tsuburaya originally wanted to use stop-motion animation to bring Godzilla to life, but it was time and cost prohibitive (he estimated 7 years), and deemed out of the question. Think aboiut how different that would have been.

Being a huge fan of O'Brien and Harryhausen myself, that form of effect also has a certain and unique style to it.
I'm not particularly married to any one way of bringing Godzilla to life; whatever works really. I could enjoy whatever technique and combination the filmmakers decide on. For me, it's the end product. I am happy he's home. I think that's where he belongs.

^Indeed, but this is why Tsuburaya is an unsung genius. Time constraints on him proved that instead of competing with Hollywood (via stop motion) he could create his own visual look that went the other direction. It was actually brilliant and it worked to help bring Japanese cinema back to life.

Godzilla being brought to life through traditional toku is part of why bringing him home is so good. He is Japan's, but toku is his.

GMAN2887 and KOLDWARKID62 - Is it true that Harryhausen actually verbally bashed Tsuburaya for using what he felt were "cheap" hollywood shortcuts - particulalry the Godzilla suit? I have heard this stated before but I am interested in having it validated by the two of you. After all, I happen to think that you are both exceptional authorities on the subject! :)

@Something Real - Unfortunately, I don't think he held them in high esteem. He probably had a bit of proprietorship over the work he did, and he felt that Godzilla was a riff of Beast from 20,000 Fathoms, and probably considered them low-brow effects.

"The traumatised Japanese nation instantly took to the 'destroying cities' genre, and 1954's Godzilla was born. 'Oh, the Godzilla stuff was a direct ...' Harryhausen bites his tongue as he says it. 'I don't like to use that word. But that was a filch from The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms.'

-the Guardian.com

In any case, Having grown up in the 60s and 70s, I grew up with a lot of "low brow" effects and loved them. I saw things with a sense of wonder, whether they were stop-motion, toku, models, color or black and white. It's a shame he felt that way, but happen to love them both. Each uses a method as a means to an end, and that end is to entrtain, astonish and give a sense of wonder to the boys and girls (of all ages) watching them.

I also have the coffee table book "Ray Harryhausen: An Animated Life." I'll have to see if there are any references there as well.

What Gman2887 wrote is one of the best explanations of the place of tokusatsu effects in Japanese culture and their relationship to sci-fi/kaiju films. It really is cultural. Certainly Toho, The Film company in Japan, knows this. To wrap one's head around this, a person has to try to see it from the inside out. They have to understand aspects of Japanese culture and art. As Gman said, the emphasis isn't on realism. It's style and mood, as the quote by Shiro Sano, fan of the series and actor in several recent Godzilla films, pointed out. Does 'realism' have a place. Yes, to a point. But the presentation, look and "mood" weigh heavy in the scale. Hers is a quote from the Production Notes to Godzilla 2000 Millennium:

"Strange as that description might seem, “charm” is crucial to the vast appeal of Godzilla. An expert perspective is offered by an American, an Academy Award-winning senior supervisor for an important visual effects company who traffics in all of the latest technologies. “I think that Japanese monster movies like Godzilla are charming in that there’s an agreement between the filmmaker and the audience to look past surface flaws, like the fact that the creature is obviously being played by a man in a rubber suit. In America, we spend a fortune erasing all seams that allow moviegoers the pleasure of knowing that what they’re watching is obviously special effects. Because of that, much time is spent making something technically perfect but often empty in terms of its soul.” (Quoted from Sci-Fi Japan-emphasis mine)

Now, in terms of the techincal aspects of the visual effects, we don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water while trying to maintain the 'style' of tokusatsu effects. I believe that artists like Shinji Higuchi are able to produce convincing enough effects, while, at the same time, giving the visuals 'that special, distinct look.' But, what I'm saying is that we will be able to 'believe' what we're seeing while enjoying the 'style' and 'mood' that arise, so naturally and, I might add, characteristically, from Japanese style practical effects. For it is these very effects that give tokusatsu films their 'soul.'

So, can Toho make a film like this and have it enjoy broad, international appeal? Maybe not in America. But, then again, it doesn't have to. A new Toho-produced Godzilla that is succesful in Japan will have achieved its goals. I see no reason why a Godzilla film made with a combination of practical and digital effects, if done well with imagination and a compelling story, cannot also do well in other countries, especially in Asia.

Plus, for me, it's the human element in the tokusatsu effects that give them their dream-like, surreal quality. In fact, Shusuke Kaneko said in an interview that giant monsters give him a 'dream-like' feeling. The advent of giant monsters, with nearly indescribable powers, would be something that people could not believe that they're actually seeing. Then again, part of it may be subconscious. It may be a matter of relating to something that is human made and enacted. Which suits and miniatures certainly are. But this is something that is highly personal and subjective.

But I love both: the Legendary CGI Godzilla and the Traditional Tokusatsu Godzilla. I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive as far as fan enjoyment. Since we are apparently getting a high-tech, digital Godzilla series from Legendary, this is all the more reason why Toho should make their Godzilla (and he is theirs, as Gman2887 pointed out) using the techniques that launched an entire genre.

"Because of that, much time is spent making something technically perfect but often empty in terms of its soul.”

There aren't enough "applause" gifs on the internet. You could've ended it all here, Jammal. Great quote.

JAMAAL and KOLDWARKID62 - The sheer amount of information you have provided is exceptional! Thank you so much for taking the time to provide this for me; it helps to answer quite a few questions I have been pondering and validates multiple thoughts I have had! This means a great deal to me! You guys are the best! :)

GMAN2887 - Hahaha! I concur 100%! Thank you once again for the link to the book to which you introduced me; I have ordered a copy and am expecting it to arrive within 2 weeks! You, like the others, are the best as well! :)

To All: I'm very pleased that we have a place where we can come togther and discuss things that really matter: Godzilla. and thank for all of the kind words.

Ironically, the quote from the Godzilla 2000 Millennium Production Notes was, I believe, partly a pushback of sorts to the dismissal of Godzilla 2000 as a 'inexpensive foreign import.' This term was actually used to describe the film Sony decided to give a stateside release. It is as if they were somewhat defensive about releasing a tokusatsu-style film here in the states. So, the charm aspect of the 23rd Godzilla film was placed front and center, as if to get in front of the anticipated rejection of a movie featuring the proverbial 'Man in a Suit.' 

It's a kind of cultural and artistic arrogance, if you think about.

If it's not digital (to some, at least), it's simply not worth seeing. Now, this is not to criticize people who prefer digital effects. Not at all. That's a matter of personal choice and taste. It's kind of like the differences between Godzilla fans regarding individual entries in the Series, or entire eras (Showa, Heisei, Millennium).

What I am referring to is the complete, out of hand, dismissal of practical effects to the point that any CGI, no matter how obvious, is considered vastly superior to any tokusatsu, no matter how well-done and finely, painstakingly, crafted.

And this just isn't true. 

@Jamaal,

"If it's not digital it's not worth seeing."

Funny how that can relate to my artwork. Mine is full traditional work, yet most people prefer this digital sh##. 

Unlike them, I definitely don't need a computer to do my work. Check out my YouTube video, http://youtu.be/RtbxsK_ffoM if that link doesn't work type in Godzilla artwork video part 1. :)

God I miss a lot!